A few questions about waterborne basecoats.
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Thanks for reply guys.
The color is BMW 309 silver, not sure if it has the MM777 in it.
I just wanted to spray a test fender, to get the hang of water BC before Canada switches over to waterborne.Holy crap, the shelf life for sikkens is ridiculous! I can already tell waterborne paint is not so friendly with hobbyists. Glasurit seems to have a much better shelf life, too bad its said to dry really slow and sand like rubber.
BTW: how come I cant use Nason clear over it? Whats going to happen? :blink:
After looking at TDS for other paints:
Pot lifes:
Spies Hecker : Unlimited
Onyx: N/A, 12 months for some.Screw Sikkens. :lol1 :blush:
I really hope the local jobber who carries Nason and Dupont stiff has the spies water. I remember him giving me quote for spies clears.
The reason you don’t want to use nason clear is it won’t stick!!!Go ahead and try it but when it peels….you get the idea.Shelf life can be increased to 3 months with 5% LP additive added BEFORE the activator is added.The reason basf and dupont an SW have a long shelf life is they are still solvent tinters,then they use a waterborne binder to make it a low voc product,they still need a mixing machine to stir them up,sikkens and ppg only need the can shaken a few times before you pour.
Wow, :blink:
so whats the Lesonal clear to use that dries fast in no-booth conditions and is decently priced?
Does U-Tech make a similar clear compatible with sikkens waterborne?Appreciated your help Jayson. :blush: :cheer:
Go with Lesonal Pro-Air clear. Works great for 1-3 panel jobs, tacks fast, and is priced good. It’s hard as hell to run also.
Ryan is absolutely right pro-air is a great clear but it is too fast for anything larger than 3 panels.Lesonal glamor clear is very nice and can also be used over autowave.Lesonal has some new low voc clears out for their waterborne but I have not used them.
I don’t know whats going to happen with utech but I don’t think any of their clears are compatible.
You can use sikkens HS+ clear,superior 250 clear,or HS+LV(not a fan of this stuff).I’ve got one other thing to toss into the waterborne discussion. We are currently debating renting or buying a gun cleaning machine, also wondering if we’ll still need to spend as much on waste disposal. I haven’t seen the invoices myself but from what I’ve been told just for our solvent washer, maintenance and disposal we are paying about $500 / month…it sounds high to me, any thoughts.. (the price will likely be going up when we upgrade to a water and solvent cleaner.
I would look into the uniram gun cleaner,this is the model we use and it works well.www.uniram.com/um120w.html You can use a 5 gallon pail of dominion sure seal aquasolve 2-3 times before you have to replace it.Not sure of the cost of a pail of it but I don’t think it is very much.I would definitely talk to basf about giving you one,the paint companies are supposed to eat the setup costs for the shop,just like the guns they gave you.Sikkens treated us very well through our change,they gave us the gun washer.I would say $500 is very high.
$500 a month is nuts. i’m not quite in the same boat as a body shop since i dont have a washer. i hand wash everything but i do collect all the solvents from it in a 55gal drum. we spray everyday day here and change colors probably a dozen times a day or more and it will take me 3 years to fill the drum and cost me $550 for pickup and disposal.
about the autowave shelf life, are you guys giving potlife times once mixed and ready to spray or actual shelf life of the base before mixing?
Lesonal ProAir clear sounds fine, I only spray 1-2 panels each time. Do you recommend slow or fast hardener? Probably slow to allow the clear to flow better?
Just wondering: how come Nason clear is not compatible with autowave making it peel? Solvents too strong?
Can lesonal proair be used with other brands, both solvent and waterborne? Diamont, Spies, etc…?
Ok, I sprayed autowave today: pain in the ass. :blink:
I sanded the whole fender with 800, first cleaned with solvent borne cleaner, then with a mix of water and alcohol.
I sprayed a full-wet coat first, and it had all sorts of problems:
mottling(huge mottling), striking, craters, and the metallics were oriented in a weird pattern upwards, kinda like iron powder on a magnet. :censWashed the whole panel down with warm water and tried again, cleaned the panel many times, same problem!
Finally after 3-4 tries, I decided to paint this piece of bumper, this time I decided to spray my first coat light, almost like solvent BC.
I still got some crates and mettalics mottling, but I waited for it to dry, then sprayed a medium wet coat followed by orientation coat and oddly enough, it covered the crater and mottlings.After all it came out acceptable. Out of curiosity, I sprayed it with Nason clear and didn’t lift, but I’ll see how it holds up tomorrow. It was just a 20″x12″ piece of a broken bumper.
Its not user friendly AT ALL, and I don’t see myself spraying large panels/whole cars with it. It’s reallyyyy finicky.
I’m really anal about surface/gun cleaning, and I’ve had zero problems with solvent basecoats.
Anyways maybe I need more practice, but this waterborne stuff will not be so friendly to a hobbyist painting a whole car on weekend.
I would try glasurit or R-M, but I’ve read they get lots of trash in them and they are a paint to sand.Maybe spies will be better, I’ll see if I can get it locally.
I’m gonna miss Diamont. :S
The main reason you had a tough time is you don’t know what you are doing,it is not like spraying solvent and you are not alone so don’t take this the wrong way 😉 .You need to forget what you know about painting and stop comparing it to solvent,it is completely different.That is why they send you on a 2 day course or have a tech rep come in and show you how to spray it.If you apply your paint to soon before your wax and grease remover flashes it can crater on you.You are supposed to see your metallics swimming in your first coat and it is supposed to be wet,then med,then drop coat.Were you waiting for the base to be dull before your next coat?Autowave is the easiest waterborne to use”once you know how”they are other people who will agree with me on this statement that have changed from another waterborne.Was your first paint job perfect?Keep at it and you will get the hang of it.
If you want to mix and match products go for it but you are asking for problems,it is not like the solvent days where you can get away with it,stick to one company for the topcoats.Your nason clear might be fine for awhile but I would put money on it that if it is out in the elements it will eventually fail.There are only a few sikkens clears that you can use or else you get the same fate.Lots of companies say there clear will stick to x-brand or whatever but have they actually tested it with every brand I doubt it that would cost Millions. :roflHi Jayson, thanks for reply. :welc
Fair enough, this was my first time spraying water and I should get the hang of it.
I waited about a minute after cleaning with waterborne solvent, then I tacked, waited another minute before spraying. I just ran the tack cloth gently along the surface, didn’t push hard.My first coat was full wet coat and I waited till the surface was matte before next coat. When you say mettalics should be swimming, do you mean they are scattered around but they are not evenly placed?
The only reason I used Nason clear was because I was just curious, its only a test panel. I take your word for it about using compatible products, that’s why I am going to ask the jobber about Pro Air clear.
I can use this clear with other brands, water and solvent right? :blush:According to Sikkens, its ok to spray first coat thin:
[URL=http://img526.imageshack.us/i/sikkens1.jpg/][IMG]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/48/sikkens1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
You applied your base to soon,I would wait at least 10 minutes and only wipe in one direction,using an air blower is also a good idea to make sure it is dry..I would only use a thin coat if I had problems like you did.The other way is to wait for it to dry and scuff your imperfections and add another coat.Remember with autowave the wetter the better,the course I took at the training center stresses wet first coat(metallics moving around that will eventually settle)medium second coat,then the drop coat to even the metallics.Once again if you want to mix products I would stick to the same base and clear or clear from a second line from the same company.I don’t know if pro-air will stick to dupont cromax or sw personally I wouldn’t do it,but it might work on a solvent system.
Admittedly I’ve never sprayed autowave, but I’ve never used a WB that recommends a full wet coat straight off. Usually a light dust coat is applied first to eliminate craters and streaks, followed by a full wet coat or two once it’s flashed. My initial dust coat is so light that you can hardly see it on the panel, but if you were to wipe it with your finger, it would indeed feel wet. I’ll blow that off with the gun for a few seconds (it’s so thin it dries almost straight away) Then pile on the wet coats.
As said, these wet coats should be really wet (I generally use the double header technique – one wet coat followed immediately by another), and usually look terrible when applied, but sort themselves out once dry.
I’ll then do a medium coat if I need it, or more usually move straight on to a drop / control coat.
It might not be ‘by the book’ for some bases, but if you’ve got chance to experiment, give it a go and see what you think. I agree with Jason though – you need to forget most of what you know about spraying base, and learn a whole new set of tricks. Personally I wouldn’t want to got back to solvent as WB is so forgiving once you get the hang of it, just as quick in my experience, and you can abuse it more without it biting you on the ass 🙂
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