BMW Rivets
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Ding
I’m not trying to argue with you BUT This is a real deal that the factory or MFG in this case BMW will have to deal with.
After doing some research on the subject mainly the research on a suitable squeezer for self piercing rivets Body shops are not going to lay out 5K+ for a special rivet squeezer when a suitable cheaper alternative replacement already exists.I’m sure the MFG chose this system because it was cheaper faster system on the assembly line only! and not having to properly train there personnel on the correct way to install Rivets plus all the problems with oversize rivets when they need to be drilled out and replaced when installed incorrectly.
I’m sure Chery max should be contacted directly for there suggestion’s of suitable replacements and allow there engineering team to confront BMW, Jaguar and the like to confront the issue head on.
I bet they are already confronting them or will be soon.
After all a fastener is just a fastener just because a MFG uses one thing doesn’t mean a suitable alternative replacement doesn’t exist or that the same factory system Has to be used 100% of the time.I see you fail to comprehend the liability one assumes when fixing someone elses vehicle. Until Chery Max or any other fastener company gains approval from BMW for the repair of their vehicles the proper product and equipment must be used. God forbid in this world someone gets injured in a car I repaired and the sue happy lawyers want to take everything I worked hard to earn. I will feel much better explaining to the Judge and jury that the repair procedures I used were directly from the manufacture of the specific vehicle and they were followed to the T, as opposed to saying “well Doright said I could do it this way on a paint forum and he knows way more about rivots than the manufacturer does”
BMW wants it a certain way for a reason. You seem to know more than I ever care to know about rivets Doright but in car repair it is best not trying to out-engineer the engineers, especially German ones.
Part of why they do it a specific way is for future collisions. It may not be about what is the strongest, it has to do with how the car reacts during another collision. if it is too strong the car will not crumple the same and the timing of the airbag deployment will not be the same. there are also a ton of other factors involved, many way beyond my pay grade.
Following OEM procedures and TDS sheets is a good way to stay out of trouble, deciding to become a bench chemist or a shadetree engineer is a good way to screw something up. Case in point look at autobody forums, ever notice a trend in threads about people having failures and problems. The common theme is they have scabbed paint systems together and play junior chemist, then come crying when everything went south. most of the time it is trying to save a buck, not reading tech sheets or they have decided they know better than anyone else.
Sorry for the rant, I am not trying to offend anyone, just talking out loud.
I see and understand Both of you and the points you are trying to put forth and I agree with both of you.
Don’t be surprised in the near future when some one looks into all this a bit more deeply and Chery Max are approved.
After all if the Jaguar body manual says that cheep ass Hemlock rivets can be used in place of SPR then surly a superior cherry max can be too.You guys need to forgive me I have a engineering back ground in structural stuff and have some federal certs to back myself up as well.
Not something every one here has the benefit of in a court of law.Still doesn’t change the fact that you don’t have the approval from the oem manufacturer no matter how educated you are.I am not doubting your knowledge or arguing with you but when it comes to repairing collision damage you follow OEM or icar approved methods PERIOD,anything less is a liability waiting to happen.The only way to prove what you say is an acceptable rivet is to repair it like they say with your style of rivets and do crash testing just like the bmw engineers have done.I honestly don’t see how you are going to change that fact :pcorn:
I understand that Jayson
But If I was in this situation and running a shop in this situation I would be calling and asking for engineering approval to use a cheaper Better stronger alternative.
After all some dumb ass engineer over In Bavaria or where ever that over priced imported POS is made probably hasn’t even ever heard of a little American company called Cherry Max.You actually think that you are going to change the minds of the german engineers of a multi billion $$$ company,doubtful.Calling a German engineer from BMW a dumbass is a pretty bold statement :rofl
[quote=”Doright” post=29724]Don’t be surprised in the near future when some one looks into all this a bit more deeply and Chery Max are approved.
After all if the Jaguar body manual says that cheep ass Hemlock rivets can be used in place of SPR then surly a superior cherry max can be too.You guys need to forgive me I have a engineering back ground in structural stuff and have some federal certs to back myself up as well.
Not something every one here has the benefit of in a court of law.[/quote]If and when they are approved, shops can then use them. Until then, your background does not carry any weight in court.
Draft a letter with all your product stuctural data and engineering background and send it to BMW. See if they approve of your repair procedure for licensed repair facilities and the insurance industry. Ask them if they will stand behind you in court even before the procedure is legally approved. Then report back here with a copy of the letter of approval you received from BMW.Wouldn’t your time be better spent trying to revolutionize the auto and aircraft industries directly instead of spending time on these forums?
It is what it is lol
I hate ALL :cens engineers, And ya contacting them for acceptable replacements should be easy if its not that needs to be changed.
Its not that hard to contact and get approval for modifications of aircraft, cars should be easier not harder. I don’t care were its made! Germany Italy France china or America.
With aircraft you always have to follow the structural repair manual for acceptable repair methods.
But substitution of fasteners of equal or greater strength can be used in many places. approval of which can come from many sources.
The mfg, local engineering, and the feds themselves. Granted you don’t have this many resources in repair of cars contacting them shouldn’t be any harder than it is for me with a problem with a major acft mfg. again if it is that difficult to contact an auto mfg that level of arrogance needs to change in the industry.There structural repair manual should already list ALL suitable acceptable replacement rivets if there going to use them not just one or two.
The world of Rivets is a big one, And theirs always a suitable replacement. too restrict you to only one method and only one type from only one mfg is not only not right it is crime in of itself.
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