How to achieve depth?
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I’m pretty new to this, I’ve painted 10-12 complete cars and a few individual panels.
Recently, a friend of mine dropped of his 1987 Buick Grand National for a paint job. We would like to achieve a very deep look. I’ve seen a few cars at car shows that look like you’d have to reach up to your elbow in paint before you got to the car. I’d like to achieve that, or something as close to that as is practical.
I’ve read that adding 10% base to the first coat of clear, then 5% base to the second coat of clear, followed by 3 clear coats will help us get the look we’re after. I’ve done several test panels in this manner, and when compared to a panel that just has three coats of clear, the panels look identical. The finish isn’t bad, it’s as good as the paint job on most OEM cars, but it doesn’t have the incredible depth that we would like to see.
We are using PPG Deltron paint and PPG clear coat DC2021. We are open to other materials, but due to cost (and that we already bought the PPG stuff) we are most likely going to go that route. Any tips on how to get as close to the look we are after with the products we have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
NEVER put basecoat in your clear,that is asking for trouble.If its a solid color 2 coats of single stage let cure for a couple of days wetsand it with 600 to make it flat and apply 2-3 coats of clear,looks amazing on black.As far as bc/cc you could sand and re-clear then cut and buff and it will look very deep.As long as you are using quality materials its not that hard.
Just for the sake of increasing my own knowledge, why should you not put base in clear? Is the reasoning behind that based on the uncertainty of the chemicals and their compatibility with one another?
3 coats of clear, 600 wet, and another three coats of clear yields good results for me; but it has never produced the deep look that I’m hoping to achieve. Any other tips?
[quote=”Neat” post=32233]Just for the sake of increasing my own knowledge, why should you not put base in clear? Is the reasoning behind that based on the uncertainty of the chemicals and their compatibility with one another?
3 coats of clear, 600 wet, and another three coats of clear yields good results for me; but it has never produced the deep look that I’m hoping to achieve. Any other tips?[/quote]
Unless the paint manufacturer tells you to put base on the clear, don’t. Chemically speaking you can only guess what will happen and hope for the best. In many scenarios, the problems are not obvious and may affect durability down the road.
One thing to consider with the depth, is the product you are using. A cheaper medium solids clear with 2 coats generally won’t give as much depth as 2 coats of a higher quality high solids clear. I can spray cheap Nason 496/497 clear and have it lay very smooth and glossy, but compare that to a mediocre job sprayed with Sikkens Superior 250 clear and the difference is almost shocking.
Jayson made a great point about S.S. black. Use a good product (since you are using PPG) like Concept or Global direct gloss. It’ll be great. And if you really want it deep, sand it and spray a few coats of Global 894 clear on there. And then if you have someone capable enough, a good wet sanding/polishing will make it show worthy if all the steps were performed well.
Sometimes cocktailing the clear with SS is done on the last coat/coats to achieve greater depth, then left as is or sanded and cleared again. Or the SS is just shot without cocktailing, sanded and recleared. The depth is due to light penetration, reflection and refraction. Light passes through the SS differently because it’s comprised of pigment and clear. Whereas in BC/CC light passes through the clear, hits the opaque basecoat surface and relects. Shooting candies are an example of depth.
Scott made some good points. He forgot to mention that for a truley deep shine a sagola must be used.
All black is made from carbon black pigment but the grind can determine the shade of black it is. Certain brands have a deeper or jet black that will help. This will affect the depth but getting real good with a buffer will help also.
[quote=”Neat” post=32233]
3 coats of clear, 600 wet, and another three coats of clear yields good results for me; but it has never produced the deep look that I’m hoping to achieve. Any other tips?[/quote]
2 things here,you are either doing it wrong or using cheap materials…….
It’s certainly possible that I’m doing it wrong. While it’s impossible to lay out all of the nuances of my paint work, I try to emulate the you tube videos of John Kosmoski. The, “I’m a robot” type of thing is what I shoot for.
My first attempt at the depth look was:
MP170 Epoxy primer over a mixture of bare metal, old base coat, and filler. 2 coats. Wait an hour.
MP282 Hi build over that, 2 coats. Wait until tomorrow.-Both sprayed medium wet with a Devilbiss Starting Line gun. 1.8 tip, about 40 PSI at the base of the gun. More PSI and I start to get what looks like dried dust at the edge of my spray patter.
600 wet on a soft block over the whole car.
5 coats of Ford Candy Apple Red in DBC. It has no metallic, and is not a candy color. It’s just a dead, flat red. Tacked between coats.-All 5 sprayed light with an IR270G, 1.5 tip, 53 PSI at handle.
3 coats of DC2021
600 wet
3 coats of DC2021.-All clear sprayed with SATA 4000 RP. First coat, light to medium. Second and third coats as heavy as I feel like I can apply it without creating runs.
Sand with 1500
Sand with 2000
Buff / polish / waxThe car turned out great. No complaints. But it still looks like a nice OEM paint job, nothing like the super depth I see at car shows from time to time.
I’ve tried two panels with black DBC in this manner with similar results. Great, if you are looking for a nice OEM look, but it doesn’t have the, “I’ll lose my mind if I look at this too long” impression.
I have also tried the above process with 10% base in the first coat of clear, and 5% base in the second coat. I am unable to tell a difference in finished product.
In my limited experience the PPG Deltron system seems to be on the upper end of what most repair places use. However, I’m not experienced enough to know what you mean (or really what the industry means) when they say ‘cheap materials.’ It’s entirely possible that the Deltron (which I kinda consider my premium paint) is something that most pros consider cheap or poor quality.
If you were looking for the “staring into infinity” look, what kind of materials would you use?
I can’t express how much I appreciate the help guys, thank you very much.
It irritates me when people ask for help, and then complain about it. You are getting help, from people who know more than you, for free. Someone, who knows more than you, is taking the time out of their life to share with you. Listen to them.
The way you have described your techniques with sanding re clearing and polishing, this should give a much better than factory or oem finish you are describing. Mabeye it is the lights at the car shows or a candy or special effect pigement you have seen in the past to produce the depth . The high solid clears are the best but you can only achieve so much depth with a opaque basecoat. Also curves and contours on a car can help reflect the light to help with a deeper look than just a flat test pannel. Good luck
I don’t want to be a downer but you should watch out for film build with all those coats…. It will chip very easily with more than recommended film builds.
my favourite trick is to add up to 25% clear to my solids jobs ,apart from the gloss it produces it also aids flow ,imo solids give superior depth to clear over base jobs i much prefer the finish but ultimatly you need a good product in the first place also two sessions generaly give superior gloss retention as the first will act like a sealer coat stopping any die back on the second
So you are doing 25% more clear in the mix than the TDS calls for?
Flow coat single stage/layer works for me when I want a nice deep glossy finish. A high solid clear works best.
Me personally I won’t 600 for reclear. I don’t use 600 unless I’m going to use base. I think it makes it a tad bit defused. Less depth because the clear is to roughed up underneath new shinny clear.
i agree with Jim. it’s probably the lighting. ive painted a lot of show cars and bikes. In the shop and outside they look good, but with well placed lights at indoor car shows they look great. A whole lot of difference lighting makes. The best you can do is get the clear really flat before buffing, the flatter the better, block it evenly so you dont get ripples in it. take your test panel and bend it so its bowed and shine a spot light on it, you will see a huge difference from indoor or outdoor light.
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