New to refinish network
- This topic has 24 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 1 month ago by .
- Posts
Stumbled on Refinish Network on YouTube and I’ve been looking for a decent “all encompassing” forum. Been shooting RM/Diamont for years.. Maryland just switched to Low VOC and I went with PPG Aquabase waterborne.
Great color matches but everything else kinda blows. Hoping to learn a few things here. Howdy neighbor I’m in pa welcome to the site I still use solvent but have used PPG water it takes time to get use to for sure but their are some guys on here that are vary knowledgeable with water and will be glad to help you out again :spraywelc: and you found the rite place for info :rock
Sup neighbor..
I understand PA is moving to WB/low VOC in 2014… Stock up on your favorite primer and clear before you can’t get them anymore. I’m on my last can of clear and still haven’t found anyone who is happy with their low VOC clear ( with the exception of one Omni user)and I think he drinks it..I have heard rumors of this but since I have dbc omni and omni plus mixing system they have shown me new binder and balancers for my system so I don’t have to go water if you need clear maybe I can meet ya at the border lol 😉
[quote=”Snipe Hunter” post=33964]Stumbled on Refinish Network on YouTube and I’ve been looking for a decent “all encompassing” forum. Been shooting RM/Diamont for years.. Maryland just switched to Low VOC and I went with PPG Aquabase waterborne. Great color matches but everything else kinda blows. Hoping to learn a few things here.[/quote]
Please explain how “everything else kinda blows”…
[quote=”smooth” post=33977][quote=”Snipe Hunter” post=33964]Stumbled on Refinish Network on YouTube and I’ve been looking for a decent “all encompassing” forum. Been shooting RM/Diamont for years.. Maryland just switched to Low VOC and I went with PPG Aquabase waterborne. Great color matches but everything else kinda blows. Hoping to learn a few things here.[/quote]
Please explain how “everything else kinda blows”…[/quote]
First, I’ll address the positives so I don’t come off as an opinionated paint snob. I have used Diamont and Chrizzma for about 8 years and I was fine with it. Like anything else I ever used, it’s fine once you use it a while.
The Aquabase blends real nicely. There’s no shadows or halo like there can be with the solvent paints. The color matches are astounding. I can only think or one or two colors that I’ve struggled with.
The downsides: I have to sand everything to 800 or you’ll see the sand marks with silvers and golds. I’m used to sanding to 400 and sometimes 600 with silvers and golds. I tend to use solvent based bulldog on plastic bumpers under my primer. If I use Aquabase over the bulldog, the clear will wrinkle. It gets worse with more coats. I stopped using bulldog. I’ll try the waterbased bulldog but it $70 a quart…
I’m still shooting over a solvent based primer (Omni) until I run out. The waterbased primer will be about double the price when I start using it. \You’ve got to be real careful about drying the paint before clearing. I’ve had to redo a few jobs because it wasn’t dry. If it’s not completely dry… the paint moves (for lack of a better word). You can see what looks like grainy shadows where it was wet.
I tend to get more dirt in the paint because it stays wet so long.
I was told that the coverage would be better than my RM/Diamont. It isn’t. I questioned the PPG rep and he told me that I need to shoot the proper spectral gray primer to get the better coverage….I told him that if it had better coverage, I wouldn’t need the spectral gray primer. I’m sure the RM coverage would be better too with a matching primer under it. Silvers and real dark blacks and blues don’t cover well. I use a black primer under black and dark blue now.
I tend to have to block out more coats of primer to hid any imperfections because the paint won’t hide anything.
More steps, more (real light) coats and blow dry between each coat, more sanding, worse coverage, longer time in the booth.
But… it looks great if you sand everything out real nicely.
Why are you using bulldog on bumpers?Throw that shit in the garbage and stick to something in your system.
You don’t need waterborne primer,a low voc 2k urethane will work just fine,again stick to something in your system.
There is nothing wrong with finishing your primer to 400 and using a dedicated sealer in you system,much faster than putting on more coats of paint,sealer will always be cheaper than paint.Paint is an expensive primer,paint is not desigened to hide scratches.If you finish your primer to 400-500,blend panels in 800 that will work fine.It sounds to me like you need to take an application course to learn the specifics at your products training center,its not like solvent you can’t cheat.All I have is the regular venturi blowers in my booth and I can still pump out 5-6 jobs a day if I hustle(thats doing my own masking)
What gun are you using?
First… I’m not using Bulldog on bumpers… I “did” use it for years. It was a decent adhesion promoter over plastic and helped hide scratches. Never had a problem with it. I’m not using it with the water based paint… it doesn’t work.
I’m not in a position to use a 2k primer unless I’m doing a bike or a retail car. I do very little retail work. I can keep bikes a longer so I can use 2k primers and I can wait till the next day to cut and buff. I do stay within the system when time and money warrants it. For the most part, my business is all fleet, rentals, dealers, etc.. I rarely have a car more than a day and most of my work is spot repair. They aren’t looking for perfection or longevity nor are they paying for it. In in the morning and out by 5pm. If I have a car more than a day, I did something wrong. I’ll shoot an etch primer on bare metal and a 1k on plastic. Everything is warranted for a year and I’ve never had a failure that I’m aware of. I’m a technical purist when it comes to my customer’s personal bikes and the occasional retail car job but not when it comes to the fleet business. In and out, it’s the business that I’m in….
I did take the application course and the paint acts just like it should. It just takes more time than solvent borne. I have used Onyx in another shop which is a solvent based low voc “hybrid” and it “acts” more like traditional solvent based paint. You can see it flash off faster and it covers 400 to 600 better than the Aquabase… Coverage is about the same as the Aquabase.
One thing that I see a huge concern is using the 1 k primer. Waterbourne just doesn’t stick to 1k lacquer and acrylic primers. It will eventually all peel off. There are a lot of fast low voc 2k urethane primers. One of ours is pre flexed, DTM and air dry in about 20-30 minutes ( and in the full lifetime warranty). I know you don’t want to spend the $ on the 2k, but with waterbourne it is not an option at all.
Your silvers and golds should do well over 600 grit (and a grey scuff pad). When I used PPG water, there were no issues with scratches showing or sinking in later. Maybe this has more to do with spraying over fresh 1k primer.
Waterbourne can be very fast, but a lot of things can slow it down (temperature, humidity, heavy/improper application, poor airflow, poor prep work).
PPG has one of the best waterbourne systems out there. There are quite a few of us on here who have previously/currently use it and may be able to help you some more.
What clears are you using?
[quote=”Snipe Hunter” post=33982]First… I’m not using Bulldog on bumpers… I “did” use it for years. It was a decent adhesion promoter over plastic and helped hide scratches. Never had a problem with it. I’m not using it with the water based paint… it doesn’t work.
I’m not in a position to use a 2k primer unless I’m doing a bike or a retail car. I do very little retail work. I can keep bikes a longer so I can use 2k primers and I can wait till the next day to cut and buff. I do stay within the system when time and money warrants it. For the most part, my business is all fleet, rentals, dealers, etc.. I rarely have a car more than a day and most of my work is spot repair. They aren’t looking for perfection or longevity nor are they paying for it. In in the morning and out by 5pm. If I have a car more than a day, I did something wrong. I’ll shoot an etch primer on bare metal and a 1k on plastic. Everything is warranted for a year and I’ve never had a failure that I’m aware of. I’m a technical purist when it comes to my customer’s personal bikes and the occasional retail car job but not when it comes to the fleet business. In and out, it’s the business that I’m in….
I did take the application course and the paint acts just like it should. It just takes more time than solvent borne. I have used Onyx in another shop which is a solvent based low voc “hybrid” and it “acts” more like traditional solvent based paint. You can see it flash off faster and it covers 400 to 600 better than the Aquabase… Coverage is about the same as the Aquabase.[/quote]
I really dont know what you are asking here.You do cheap fleet work…..well you got to do what you have to do I guess.So I don’t understand why you put in a high $ system,it makes no sense,why not put in a low voc solvent base or keep using diamont.There are plenty of ways to maintain production but using cheap 1k and etch primer,no sealer etc is going to be counter productive.Spend the time to prep finer,it doesn’t take much extra time,you need to get”hiding or filling scratches with base” out of your head,it just doesn’t work.Spraying waterborne over rattle can primer is asking for trouble,the base will actually eat into it eventually.
C’mon man, you just need to learn how to use the stuff, its not uncommon for guys that are used to solvent to complain about the switch to waterborne, there are still guys in my area that are doing the same, if you would give it an honest chance and learn how to use it properly you would understand that the stuff is amazing (been using Aquabase everyday for 4 years) I consider color match to be probably the best attribute to any paint system ,and this is probably the best system out there for color match. I usually tend to seal just about everything if I don’t just finish the 2k primer surfacer in 600 grit, no biggie. Again like Jay mentioned stick to everything in the system and you will not go astray. Get to know how to use the system first before you bash it, I personally can answer just about any question you have (Certified Aquabase user) so don’t be shy!
I really dont know what you are asking here.You do cheap fleet work…..well you got to do what you have to do I guess.So I don’t understand why you put in a high $ system,it makes no sense,why not put in a low voc solvent base or keep using diamont.There are plenty of ways to maintain production but using cheap 1k and etch primer,no sealer etc is going to be counter productive.Spend the time to prep finer,it doesn’t take much extra time,you need to get”hiding or filling scratches with base” out of your head,it just doesn’t work.Spraying waterborne over rattle can primer is asking for trouble,the base will actually eat into it eventually.[/quote]
I don’t think I was asking anything? I can’t continue to use the diamont because it isn’t available in Maryland.We went “green” on July 1st. Diamont isn’t a low VOC product. I don’t really think the Aquabase is a “high dollar” system compared to other low VOC alternatives. It is certainly more expensive than Diamont and less expensive than Envirobase. As for “hiding or filling scratches with base”… I don’t think I said that. I think I said hiding scratches with primer and bulldog on plastic parts. PPG says to sand to 800 wet for Aquabase. I do that for high metalics, I can get away with 600 for solids colors.
Somebody asked which clear I’m using: Deltron DC2000 Ultra Velocity Clear. I’ll be out of it this month and will have to start using a low VOC clear. I’m not sure what I’ll use yet. I’ll need a fast clear. The DC2000 spoiled me and I don’t expect to find a product that looks that nice and sets that fast in a low VOC product.
I wonder if Smooth can recommend a fast Nexa clear. I’m familiar with the PPG branded low voc clears, but appearantly the Nexa ones are much nicer. The clear coat is the weak link in the PPG low voc system, in my opinion.
As far as saying there are no low VOC clear as fast and nice looking as the DC2000, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you get a chance to try some.
Ok when I worked for Chevy I was one of 3 start to finish techs we used enviro hp I am not familiar with aquabase we used dps3055 primer and das sealer we finish sanded to 400-600 and 800 our blends and the water worked good as long as not to humid and not to heavy application that being said it is much pickier than solvent now that I have reopened my own shop I do a lot of similar work as you were cost is a issue so I understand your trying to save money but 1k primer is not the place even a cheap 2k and a infrared light would be a better route u said u were using omni primer now they have a low voc option in 3 colors that might help shades of grey are going to help no matter what line/brand paint you use as far as clears there much better ones than 2000 I have used alot of it but have been reimbursed for some failures the guys on here can point you in a good direction if they know your gun and booth set up also available venders in your area remember their are many different roads to get the same place in body work I do agree with you about getting more dirt but I know alot of these guys have got that handled to I hope this helps a little :stoned
[quote=”Ben” post=33987]I wonder if Smooth can recommend a fast Nexa clear. I’m familiar with the PPG branded low voc clears, but appearantly the Nexa ones are much nicer. The clear coat is the weak link in the PPG low voc system, in my opinion.
As far as saying there are no low VOC clear as fast and nice looking as the DC2000, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised if you get a chance to try some.[/quote]
P-190-6659 is the Express clear and p-190-6690 is the slower glamour clear great for completes, im not 100% sure of the of the number on the speed clear in the US but here it is p-190-6800. They are all great clears and hold an unbelievable gloss but yes they are very pricey.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.