Re: Sikkens Autowave VS. Sherwin-Williams AWX
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Ryan, Ben, and Jayson… Thanks for the info! Sorry about my anonymity for now, but the deal is not done yet, and everyone knows each other in this business! Doesn’t seem to matter where you are…
Ryan… Our Sikkens Rep. here is Steve Baran. Are you in SoCal?
Ben… I actually spent quite a bit of time going out to local shops that are spraying both systems, and would have to agree with you about coverage and color match. This was a big reason why Sikkens was brought to the table. I have a bunch of experience with Sherwin’s solvent, and always thought it was a very good product. But it seems they have some issues with AWX.
Jayson… I completely agree with what you stated about sprayable costs VS. coverage. With all discounts factored in, Sikkens basecoat was actually within pennies per sprayable quart to AWX using a list of the top 30 OEM colors sprayed on the market today. Take the coverage factor into account, and it really made Sikkens very comparable, even with the higher costs of clears, primer/sealer, etc.
Underpaid Painter… I always was a fan of Ultra 7000 too. I used it for about 5 years. Very productive, and their CC930, CC950, and HPC clears were very nice. Unfortunately, I can’t spray any of those products out here in CA. And from what I keep hearing, AWX needs some work yet. Most of the guys that really like Ultra 7000, are the guys that have sprayed Standox or Spies in the past. Sherwin owned Standox for awhile and stole a lot of their technology. So, since around 2004-05, Sherwin’s solvent has sprayed a lot like a true European basecoat. Which I always loved!
So, to the guys on here that are very familiar with Sikkens… What are your opinions on the EnergyPro 250 clear, and the LV II clear? I havent read to much feedback about the LV II? But I guess it is becoming one of the work-horse clears here in CA. Also, are you guys using the Colorbuild Plus 250 as you main primer/filler? I know it is their sealer also, I am just curious if everyone is using it as their work-horse primer, and if they are actually using it mixed to be close to the color of the car?, as it is meant to be used? I have also heard that Autowave had some problems in the past with their solid reds not being clean enough, and very difficult/time consuming to fix. Have they gotten this problem under control?
Sorry for the 20 questions. I like to know what i am getting myself into! I appreciate all of your feedback… :teach
Ryan… I haven’t actually had my hands on the Superior 250 yet, but I saw it sprayed at a few of the shops we visited. It looks effortless to spray, and the finished product is damn nice! I haven’t seen the LV II sprayed yet. But the guys I have talked to seem to like it enough. Not as much as the Superior though! What part of the world are you spraying in? And I agree, Steve is a good guy. I have known him for awhile now myself. He is pretty tech-savvy… For a sales rep!:lol: Thanks for all the feedback! I really appreciate it. :cheers
sambopr… You had more color match success with AWX??? You are the very first person I have heard say that. I am VERY familiar with Sherwin Williams. Just not AWX basecoat. I have used all of their other products (Ultra 7000, P30A, CC930,931,950, HPC 15-21) for quite a few years, and always liked it. I just am not getting any positive feedback about AWX’s color match, or coverage, compared to Sikkens. You used both???
I use CBP 250 and it works well,but not as nice as the old colorbuild plus.If you are doing a complete you need extra slow activator,it flashes real fast.As far as being used as a primer surfacer I have not used it(I just spray) but the guys in the shop say it is the same as the old colorbuild.
Energy pro when mixed with energy pro hardener is not very nice,kind of thick and dries fast,designed for crossflow booths.But on the flip side if you mix energy pro with superior 250 hardener it is completely different and nice to spray and air dries very fast.
I very rarely tint my sealer,generally I just mix shades of gray and use medium gray 60% of the time.
Superior 250 is the absolute best low voc clear on the market,once you see it,and spray it you will agree.My only negative is the loss of CR wash primer,now we have these stupid panel wipes for bare metal.There is a real need for a fast drying low voc epoxy or etch primer,this will come back and kick all of these big companies in the balls when stuff starts rusting 👿 👿
I have not had any issues with reds not being clean enough,everything has been blendable.I work in a shop with 2 painters and 16 body men and we pump out 60-100 cars a week,plus restorations of classics,big rigs and whatever else can fit through the door :rofl So we have seen our fair share of reds 😉
Any other questions??i use ppg products. other than that.:nothingtoad
i take that back i do have something to add, other than cost, go with what you feel comfortable with, in the long you’ll save more money, time and effort. makeing the change to water can be a hassel, and if you don’t feel confy with it, it will be a bigger waste of time. best thing i say to do is spray the products your intersested in, and not for a day or two either, give them a good run, try to purposely mess it up and as well spraying it like it’s supposed to.
I still use Colorbuild plus so I can’t comment on the 250. I actually do mix colored sealers somewhat often. For poor hiding colors and I can match the original ecoat color on a cut-in job.
I have not experienced any issues with solid reds.
I have heard the LV clear is an OK clear and on the fast side. I only use Superior. It is pricey to buy but goes really far. I can turn around 110-120 hours from a can of clear without trouble. Per sprayable ounce I think it is in line with any other clear. It is a dream to use also.
I’m not in Socal but I know Steve. He is a very knowledgeable rep. To me a big part of picking a paint line is support. The best line in the world will have kinks and if the rep doesn’t know how it works you are up shit creek without a paddle. You are fortunate to have him as your rep, there are a lot out there who don’t know much.
I don’t think you will have any regrets with Sikkens. I can’t think of much I would change.
[quote=”Anonymous” post=20253]Ryan, Ben, and Jayson… Thanks for the info! Sorry about my anonymity for now, but the deal is not done yet, and everyone knows each other in this business! Doesn’t seem to matter where you are…
Ryan… Our Sikkens Rep. here is Steve Baran. Are you in SoCal?
Ben… I actually spent quite a bit of time going out to local shops that are spraying both systems, and would have to agree with you about coverage and color match. This was a big reason why Sikkens was brought to the table. I have a bunch of experience with Sherwin’s solvent, and always thought it was a very good product. But it seems they have some issues with AWX.
Jayson… I completely agree with what you stated about sprayable costs VS. coverage. With all discounts factored in, Sikkens basecoat was actually within pennies per sprayable quart to AWX using a list of the top 30 OEM colors sprayed on the market today. Take the coverage factor into account, and it really made Sikkens very comparable, even with the higher costs of clears, primer/sealer, etc.
Underpaid Painter… I always was a fan of Ultra 7000 too. I used it for about 5 years. Very productive, and their CC930, CC950, and HPC clears were very nice. Unfortunately, I can’t spray any of those products out here in CA. And from what I keep hearing, AWX needs some work yet. Most of the guys that really like Ultra 7000, are the guys that have sprayed Standox or Spies in the past. Sherwin owned Standox for awhile and stole a lot of their technology. So, since around 2004-05, Sherwin’s solvent has sprayed a lot like a true European basecoat. Which I always loved!
So, to the guys on here that are very familiar with Sikkens… What are your opinions on the EnergyPro 250 clear, and the LV II clear? I havent read to much feedback about the LV II? But I guess it is becoming one of the work-horse clears here in CA. Also, are you guys using the Colorbuild Plus 250 as you main primer/filler? I know it is their sealer also, I am just curious if everyone is using it as their work-horse primer, and if they are actually using it mixed to be close to the color of the car?, as it is meant to be used? I have also heard that Autowave had some problems in the past with their solid reds not being clean enough, and very difficult/time consuming to fix. Have they gotten this problem under control?
Sorry for the 20 questions. I like to know what i am getting myself into! I appreciate all of your feedback… :teach[/quote]
I have used the Ultra 7000 a bit, and it was a much better system than the AWX and low VOC products. I think if Underpaid Painter had the chance to compare AWX to Autowave he would feel similarly.
Good luck with whichever system you go with :cheers
Well, I must say this is a good topic as i can chime in. I switched to Sherwin Williams AWX from Autowave. The way we came to the decision was by putting them side by side in a line trial.We had both in house for 30 days. It all came down to production and who brought more to the table. We started looking for another paint supplier because the Sikkenz rep and jopper started dropping the ball. All fluff and no support. They were always there at the beggining and gracefully faded away. Not returning phone calls and just brushing us off. But thats another subject. Ok when the sherwin guys first came in a thought they were going to pick a code pop a lid and shoot. I was wrong there tech rep refused to. He wanted to come in and do a full shop assessment. Measure air flow in the booth during paint cycle bake and dehydration cycle. They also checked the airline humidity, compressor, piping size and air filtration. He also looked at our proccesses and procedures along with how Autowave was performing. He returned about a week later and met with the shop manager and owner for about an hr and a half. I didnt sit in on the meeting because the cars werent going to spray themselves. The manager came out and said they we had to look at there stuff and by that point i was intrested to because the bm wasnt easy to impress. When the set up he pulled out some tools and changed a 5 ft pipe in our airlines. He said it was too small and restriced the airlines tremendously. When we started spraying product we started with the primer. P30A its a preflexed 4:1:1 primer that sprayed like a heavy basecoat and dried shinny. The bodymen were flipping out. We were able to identify how good the bodywork was in advance. This primer dry sands The best also. Doesnt clog the paper and the best part is it dries in 45 minutes air dry and 10 minutes with a heat lamp. There is another ratio for a speed dry wich is 15 minutes air dry. P30 is also a sealer just add one more ingredient and you have a sealer with a 2 hr recoat window. When we started spraying AWX i was impressed as to the way the tech rep explained what the paint was doing and it did just that. The car was 737m honda color and I was trying to get it to look bad but i couldnt. 2 coats later we hit it with an orientation coat and we mixed the clear. 751 is the clear we use along with an air dry clear HPC21. The dude dialed my guns in and I must say this clea is SWEEEEET. We went back and forth with coors Autowave and AWX and AWX was mint 59 out of 63 cars and Autowave i had to call for 3 field formulas and they changed some toners on my mixing bank. Sikkenz had 4 guys in our shop and Sherwin had 1 sales guy and the tech. AWX is very easy to spray and as long as you understand the product I think you will be happy. And keep this in mind we dont price things out per can or sprayable oz. We calculate applied cost meaning what was used on the car. Sherwin is cheaper everytime. Have your painter mix accordingly on the scale avoiding over mixing and everything will be good. That was our success story, We are currently 6 months in and to this day i am still happy. and I was a and 8 year Sikkenz oainter and I gave them plenty of oppurtunities to make good. If awx isnt working in other locations i have to say its more to it than just product. Thats just my 2 cents. Hope this was helpfull. You can inbox me if you have any other questions I can answer the best i can.
Yes I used both. I must say if you used the clears and undercoats and were happy with them then dialing the basecoat in is no issue at all. Is your shop one to push the evelope with color? panel paint more often than you should?
I have used both the autowave and the awx and I have to say that Autowave is a much better product then AWX, dries quicker and matches much better, have butt painted some colours and it was bang on. Biggest complaint I have on AWX is color chips, check a paint code and it has say 6 variants but sherwin only has a chip for the standard variant. Who has the time to mix 6 colors, spray and clear 6 spray out cards? Not a production shop thats for sure.
I know if it were up to me I would be using Sikkens. Just my 2 cents.
ChrisWe had both AWX Autowave systems at my school. What it comes down to is quality vs productivity. Sikkens has a better color match and lays light silvers much better. Sherwin is probably the fastest paint out there and light silvers always mottle. Another thing is we did run in to quite a few adhhesion problems which no one was able to explain. So if your doing high end cars, this shouldn’t even be a topic, sikkens hands down. Not even just my opinion, its a fact. Quality vs productivity. I will admit however that sherwins clears are better than sikkens, but that’s just my opinion. I think sherwins clears are the best in all categories in terms of dry time, gloss, user friendly, and appearance..
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