Dennis B.
Forum Replies Created
- Posts
It is what it is lol
I hate ALL :cens engineers, And ya contacting them for acceptable replacements should be easy if its not that needs to be changed.
Its not that hard to contact and get approval for modifications of aircraft, cars should be easier not harder. I don’t care were its made! Germany Italy France china or America.
With aircraft you always have to follow the structural repair manual for acceptable repair methods.
But substitution of fasteners of equal or greater strength can be used in many places. approval of which can come from many sources.
The mfg, local engineering, and the feds themselves. Granted you don’t have this many resources in repair of cars contacting them shouldn’t be any harder than it is for me with a problem with a major acft mfg. again if it is that difficult to contact an auto mfg that level of arrogance needs to change in the industry.There structural repair manual should already list ALL suitable acceptable replacement rivets if there going to use them not just one or two.
The world of Rivets is a big one, And theirs always a suitable replacement. too restrict you to only one method and only one type from only one mfg is not only not right it is crime in of itself.I understand that Jayson
But If I was in this situation and running a shop in this situation I would be calling and asking for engineering approval to use a cheaper Better stronger alternative.
After all some dumb ass engineer over In Bavaria or where ever that over priced imported POS is made probably hasn’t even ever heard of a little American company called Cherry Max.I see and understand Both of you and the points you are trying to put forth and I agree with both of you.
Don’t be surprised in the near future when some one looks into all this a bit more deeply and Chery Max are approved.
After all if the Jaguar body manual says that cheep ass Hemlock rivets can be used in place of SPR then surly a superior cherry max can be too.You guys need to forgive me I have a engineering back ground in structural stuff and have some federal certs to back myself up as well.
Not something every one here has the benefit of in a court of law.Ding
I’m not trying to argue with you BUT This is a real deal that the factory or MFG in this case BMW will have to deal with.
After doing some research on the subject mainly the research on a suitable squeezer for self piercing rivets Body shops are not going to lay out 5K+ for a special rivet squeezer when a suitable cheaper alternative replacement already exists.I’m sure the MFG chose this system because it was cheaper faster system on the assembly line only! and not having to properly train there personnel on the correct way to install Rivets plus all the problems with oversize rivets when they need to be drilled out and replaced when installed incorrectly.
I’m sure Chery max should be contacted directly for there suggestion’s of suitable replacements and allow there engineering team to confront BMW, Jaguar and the like to confront the issue head on.
I bet they are already confronting them or will be soon.
After all a fastener is just a fastener just because a MFG uses one thing doesn’t mean a suitable alternative replacement doesn’t exist or that the same factory system Has to be used 100% of the time.I agree with you HOWEVER I would be willing to bet money that the correct selection of Rivets from Cherry Max would MEET or EXCEED factory replacement requirements, They are that good. That’s what they are for and That’s what they do meet OR exceed factory requirements.
Personally after looking over what the factory self piercing rivet looks like after being installed correctly it looks like it stretches the metal A LOT, I would rather have a Cherry in it myself Or a solid rivet’s if I were doing the repair. Rivets are Judged mainly by Shear strength I’m sure the metal would fail and tear before either a self piercing rivet or the Correct Cherry would fail. Im sure BOTH mfg could be contacted for engineering support on this topic, I am sure Cherry Max would welcome the challenge if the correct people were contacted.
How expensive is this special self piercing Rivet squeezer any way????? If its less than a grand guys need to quit crying about it and belly up and buy one. A new Cherry max gun is gonna be around a Grand any way, I just missed out on a used and abused cherry max puller on ebay for $225 and most are selling used in $500-$600 range, These are no joke rivets I’m talking about, they require their own special puller themselves although I have used regular hand squeezer for small ones.
Ding asked “Are they approved by BMW for use?”
Probably not. But every aircraft manufacture in the world approves them for use on there aircraft.
That may not mean much to you but a lot of stuff in the auto and truck industry traces back to the Aerospace industry first, not the other way around. I’m gonna say they chose these type of rivets for speed on assembly line as they don’t require any hole preparation.
Just place rivet in gun and shoot no hole drilling.By the looks of that rivet its a self piercing rivet and you will need a very special squeezer and extra specific size tooling to install it correctly. Your Not going to be able to just pound that with a regular rivet set and bucking bar.
http://www.valleyfastener.com/self-piercing-rivets.html
The squeezer for this type of system is probably in excess of 3 grand I would think? I could be wrong but I doubt it?I see no problem using Cherry max or Huck’s or other similar hi quality blind locking fasteners with locking device.
The rivets I’m talking about are Very hi quality designed for use on aircraft. Been around for a very long time very strong.
A good puller for Chery max is not cheap but can be purchased new or used. Andi bet its a whole lot cheaper than a self piercing system.If panels are steel your gonna need a steel fastener noted by an “S” in part number system or Stainless steel noted by a “C” to prevent dissimilar metal corrosion, aluminum and steel don’t play well together in long run. Cherry Max makes rivets in all kinds of different materials.
aluminum, Monel, Stainless steel, steel, etc. also Bulb head or Flush head.
Some are for structures some for shear strength clamping etc…. There is a lot to know about rivets, I know more about them than I care too.http://www.cherryaerospace.com/product/blindrivets.html
OK all said and done, Just weld or Glue the panel on and forget it. :deadhorse
Not saying it works every time (as I have removed glass with this method before myself) but a good quick smack at a right angle works.
The glue is made for a tension bond and like super glue doesn’t take side loads and will shear when a force is applied from the side.
Needs to be quick though I use a punch and a small hammer and just give the metal plate a good single Tap, generally it pops right off clean BUT I have ruined a few windshields as well. its glass! guarantied to break eventually.I wouldn’t do it unless your prepared to replace it
[quote=”nick1″ post=27797]Replacing right quarter on a 2011 BMW 328i Convertible. OE procedure says to use rivets to lower the number of welds. Got the rivets they are called punch rivets (N4 & N5). BMW sells a nice hydraulic rivet squeezer for big$$. Any referrals of alternate tools for squeezing in these rivets?
[/quote]I would use Chery Max rivets instead.
[quote=”JackMarshall” post=27821]I find it strange how they’re telling us to glue and rivet these structural panels on to decrease welds.. yet still have to weld the joint up the roof pillars anyway?! What was wrong with a spot weld in the first place?![/quote]
Cheaper faster easier
[quote=”ding” post=21670]http://3mcollision.com/products/sealants
Thanks Ding
I like this one http://3mcollision.com/products/sealants/3m-bare-metal-seam-sealer-beige-08310.html
I have to order it and there special gun and tips going to be almost 200 bucks :cens
But it sounds like a good product for those drip railsChecked out 3M web sight I only see 1k products????? nothing that requires mixing
I know my jobber has the all around, Fast and firm, and the brush able from this web page http://www.shop3m.com/3m-seam-sealer-djlg9dfdh2.html
Jim
Well doing what I am doing I wasnt going to order just a few hundred pounds more like at least 1000 maybe 2ooo lbs.
I know what your talking about though. I guess I will just have to call them and figure in shipping and all and see what kind of price I can get.Hi Jim
What does the stuff cost? per 100lb bag?
They dont say on there web sight I hate it when they do that!Well been long time cars done check ther link out for all the pics, over 300 of them!
[IMG]http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t44/Marvinator/41%20ford/May9013.jpg[/IMG]
http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t44/Marvinator/41%20ford/
Hi guys
Thanks for all the opinionsTheres is no Rust to speak of on this car dont get me wrong yes there’s a couple spots that have LIGHT surface corrosion.
But for the 99% of this car its Rust free! Its like its the 70’s again with this car!
Its been in a Garage all its life till I got it evidently.It’s had one repaint plus the quarter repairs.
In all fairness it looks like the repaint was done when they did all the body repairs too the quarters.So any way Im really not worried about any corrosion in any of my welds IF I weld.
Im more worried that the panel will start shrinking and warping the panel.Ryan
I could not in good conscious leave dissimilar metals together filling up my panel.
Good idea but I just couldnt do that.Painter123
I wish I knew how to do Lead. Some day I got to play with that stuff.Kitty hair
Well thats how I was going to do it getting behind the panel is easy enough.
Even if I do weld it I would seal the welds with Kitty hair any ways especialy the back side.